Wally, please, come on, are you really going to tell me that it is better to raise a family in Detroit, or New York City, or San Francisco than in Virginia Beach? No wonder the "DON'T DO IT TEAM" lost so badly. You guys could never separate fact from fiction.

Fact is, whether Forbes can divide two figures correctly or not and arrive at such an absurd conclusion is beside the point. What do they know about raising a family at the Beach? Frankly, nothing.

And your attempt to buttress their point with pointed references to referenda is equally absurd. The special irony is that thousands of families who have been provided parking, a new park, and quality retail and hotel facilities at 31st Street, while you and you cohorts were denied office by the voters because you tried to stop the project.

So Wally, I hope you have enjoyed this comical interlude, but I am afraid the joke is on you.

Wally - The Forbes.com article dated 12/02/08 indicates that Virginia Beach is the 10th least family friendly city out of the 40 largest cities studied. The study compared the cost of basic living expenses to family median incomes and found that, in terms of affordability, Virginia Beach families spend 81% of their incomes on basic living expenses. New York, of course, was THE least family friendly with a 93% ratio. Please quote the article accurately.

Editor's note: Thank you for the correction.

The important thing is that the data reflected in the article is accurate. Forbes is a well respected financial magazine and that data was taken from surveys that the Census Bureau uses.

Once again, rather than acknowledge the problem and attempt to solve it, Mike, you attack Forbes. I hope that this article opens some eyes and SOMETHING is done to correct it. Acknowledging the problem is the first step.

I also agree with Beth. Sure, representing us as #1 in this instance might provide more shock value, but the lack of accuracy potentially damages credibility. 10th most unfriendly is definitely still a monumental embarassment.

I would point out that the article and data center on financial friendliness to families. As someone that grew up here, there is more to Virginia Beach than that embarassing set of statistics that is unfortunately reflective of our current financial troubles.

We have decent schools here. You don't have to move too far out of VB to see steep declines in education. Services here are pretty good. On the whole, crime for a city our size isn't what is putting embarassing headlines on a national level. We live in an area with yes, stifling humidity at times, but relatively good weather conditions.

In Virginia Beach, we have the best of many worlds. I love suburbia and yes, sprawl. I also love going into Pungo for the Strawberry Festival or a taste of rural surroundings. Nearby North Carolina is also a diversion. We have the beach. The strip for a little more excitement, Sand Bridge if you want a quieter beach without the tourists, and the military has its plusses at Dam Neck. Sometimes city life can be fun. Whether it is the Beach strip, Towne Center or nearby Norfolk, I appreciate the choices. Richmond isn't but so far away. There's also Williamsburg's nearby historical areas and Busch Gardens.

I grew up here and want to stay here. I have been out of the area and always found something in VB to want to come back for. Although, the cost of living is not one of them. At one time, it was fairly cheap to live here.

Mike & Wally, there is far more to Virginia Beach than the cost of living vs. salaries(which yes....is a problem). I am glad that VNS and the VBTA is hammering the issue and proclaiming that "the emperor wears no clothes", because it is a big issue that certain minds that allegedly represent our interests SHOULD be addressing.

Sometimes just because the obvious is uttered by "the other side", it is discounted and wise courses of action are never taken. That kind of partisanship serves nobody's best interests. We shouldn't have to see this kind of thing in a national magazine. Now that we have, let's just get around to fixing the problems.

Well Britt, thanks for making my point.

But of course, in the end by commending VNS and the VBTA, you refuse to acknowldege that for the old men of the old guard in the VBTA, every expense for the family friendly environment that is spent by our council is an expense too much for them.

Britt, you can't have it both ways. If you put yourself in with the old, angry, out of touch, failed politicians group, you will simply be consumed by their negativism. However, if you wish to lead the movement to a fiscally conservative yet constructive contribution to civic life, then you must choose a separate path.

I hope you choose well. MJB sends!

I do have to navigate through stubborness and negativism on both of your sides. However, many in the VBTA are friends and I have a high regard for them. I do agree with them more often as well.

I can't have it both ways? No doubt some of my friends in the VBTA are concerned that I am too open minded and respectful when conversing with Mike Barret. After all, you just might be the anti-christ. Humor. I have yet to hear them saying I can't have it both ways as of yet, but it may be coming.

The thing is, I want to hear more than one side. I prefer making informed decisions. With all the name calling, it is hard to get any hard info or even statements of position through the mine fields of ad hominem. Maybe VNS likes it that way. Maybe confrontation sells. It doesn't help me learn though. You are knowledgeable in some key areas. I want to hear what guys like you think about topics like this.

I disagree obviously, that by commending VBTA & VNS that I do any such thing. The FACT is, that they are the only ones screaming that the "emperor wears no clothes". Mike, I didn't need to read that Forbes article quoting information that the Census Bureau uses, to know that it was true. Reading it confirmed the obvious. If they are going to bring this to public attention and maybe....just maybe, city council/management is forced to do something, they (VBTA)deserve a medal! Does this mean I agree with every point that every VBTAer comes up with? Of course not. There's that diversity of opinion you were making fun of before. Contrary to claims of some, Robert isn't a cult leader or the "Grand Wizard". Again, I am not a VBTA member, but I probably should consider joining.

I am confronted with a few issues that force me to re-examine issues and possibly straddle them, regarding developing Town Center and light rail:

1) Chief among them - there is a darn good chance that we are going to get light rail regardless. My instincts say that this possibility should be prepared for.
2) When opposite sides are so passionate, it makes me wonder what each side sees that makes them hold the line so fiercely.
3)I'm still not sold on light rail yet, but I see some potential if things are handled properly. Unfortunately, "emperor's running around naked" don't convince me of their competence. How are they going to pull something off of this magnetude by insisting that we don't have problems and simply attack the naysayers?

SPSA comes to mind here. No, I don't blame one guy (you) for that authority's need to be recycled. You were one of many faces in SPSA. However, SPSA is another symptom of the overall ignored and denied problems that have come home to roost.

All your comments on the mayoral election aside, we need to address one huge factor. Under normal circumstance, Will Sessoms with twice the money he raised, would not have been able to overcome vote splitting by Moss against Oberndorf. UNLESS something was very very wrong. Sentiment for change was at unheard of levels. If it wasn't...... Meyera would still be mayor. Sessoms was seen as the best chance to defeat Oberndorf. As it was, Moss still commanded numbers that should be disturbingly high and of concern. Typically, the odd man out gets crushed. I'm talking 2-5% max. even if he is a candidate that might make 28-35% in a two way race against an entrenched opponent. This go around in a two way race, I am super confident that Moss would have defeated Oberndorf in a two way race. Even if Sessoms was still in but, didn't get the GOP support and had equal sums of money, Moss would have won.

Do VBTA members sometimes instantly write off possible good ideas coming from your/council/Spore's front? Yes. Partly due to never being given respect by the city council or management. They should still be open to listen.

Let's look at your side (not just you personally)of the arguements that practically deny obvious problems. There is a serious need of some type of intervention. Maybe that Forbes article and everything else will convince somebody that serious steps need to be taken. Economic development is a good tool but, if anyone thinks that's all it takes, they're still in denial.

It would serve everyone well if grudges were put aside momentarily and expertise and effort was shared. Something might get done beyond name calling and bankruptcy.

Regretfully, the Forbes article may have correct arithmetic, but it is totally misleading. You can't ignore the "benefits" in lieu of income for our military families and say you have presented an accurate assessment.

You give Moss far too much credibility. This past campaign presented clear distinctions, and Moss may have received a few more votes had Taylor been out of the race, but given the way he attacked Oberndorf, I doubt more than a few of those who voted for her would have voted for John.

The VBTA scorched earth attitude was clearly refuted. Fact is, most citizens love living here and want quality schools and city programs and services. So do many VBTA members; they just don't want to pay for them.

Perhaps when Moss, Dean, Krause, Greenmun et al have moved on, the fiscally conservative movement can gain some traction and credibility. Until then, the general perception is that they are cranks. Less than 16% is just about right. MJB sends!